CADASTRA EDUCATION

Search Experience Course at Cadastra Education

In this search experience course at Cadastra Education, the main objective was to teach strategies to leverage results in organic search. In the exclusive podcast for students, I talked a little about my work as an SEO manager at B2W and my journey so far. I began working with SEO in 2011, when it was much less sophisticated and easier to do.

I explained to the students why SEO work used to be simpler: Google’s algorithms were less complex, and all we really had to do was place keywords inside the pages. These days, SEO is much more technical, and doing it well involves getting to grips with the website’s  server, security protocols and other key details.

I also discussed what requires the utmost attention in today’s SEO world: Google and paid media. Most of the searches here in Brazil are made using Google, which sells a lot of advertising, either through Google Ads or with Google shopping. In my opinion, understanding how SEO interacts with the world of paid media is critical, since organic results are increasingly ranked below  paid media content on Google.

Richard is a professor at Cadastra Education

I also talked about how, despite the wealth of quality professionals from Brazil, it is difficult to work with SEO here. It’s a challenge to find the right people, so much so that two years ago, SEO professionals were the most sought-after profiles on LinkedIn, although this trend has since died down.

Speaking about my experience with SEO, I gave some tips to the students, including the importance of analyzing metrics to find out which strategies are working and which are not. I also  highlighted that, for me, when it comes to SEO there are no right answers, so it is vital to always be reading articles and doing your own research.

The world of SEO is set to undergo great change in the coming years, despite Google reducing the frequency of its updates due to the pandemic. Check out the full podcast transcript below.

Podcast – Search Experience 

Victor: Hey, guys, how’s it going? Victor Magalhães here, Director of Digital Operations at Cadastra, speaking on behalf of the Search Experience course of our Education division. I will be interviewing today’s specialist for our Search Experience course, Richard Fenning of B2W, a model professional when we talk about e-commerce and SEO. Richard, welcome, it’s a pleasure to be able to count on you both here on the podcast and on our course.

Richard: Good afternoon Victor, how are you? It’s a pleasure to be here with you, my name is Richard, I work at B2W and as you can see from my accent, I’m not from Brazil – I’m from Ireland, but I have lived here in Latin America for ten years.

I’ve been here in Brazil for two years, working at B2W in Rio de Janeiro. Before that, I worked for a few years in Argentina, for different companies, agencies, applications and also e-commerces, including Mercado Livre. I now work as SEO manager at B2W, which comprises the following brands: Americanas, Submarino, Shoptime and SouBarato.

Our responsibility within the SEO team is to do all the necessary SEO for these brands. We have to make the products of these brands accessible to our customers within Google. We have a team of ten people working in this area.

Victor: How cool, what an interesting challenge, and being responsible for such a large team and one of the largest e-commerce operations in Brazil must be very cool. Richard, tell me, in what year did you start working with SEO, and what was it like back then?

Richard: I started working with SEO in 2011, almost ten years ago. And at that time the SEO was much less sophisticated than it is today. I remember very well that in 2011, it was very easy to do SEO. Google’s algorithms were less complex. All we did was place keywords inside the page.

We did many things that at the time were blackhat, and that we do not recommend nowadays, but at that time there was a lot of keyword stuffing. SEO has changed a lot for me over the years, and now I’m more focused on technical SEO and user experience.

I have spent ten years working in SEO, and in the world of paid media. I’ve also worked with apps. And finally, in 2016 I more or less returned to the world of SEO. So it’s been five years since I’ve been back in the SEO world.

Victor: Cool, so you’ve been through some adventures then, since keyword stuffing! You must have a lot of interesting stories.

Richard: Yes, fortunately I’ve never been penalized on Google, although I certainly came very close. Now working in e-commerce, we need to pay close attention. And to tell you the truth, working at B2W, we’re fine now, we’re very aligned with Google.

I think every time Google’s algorithm changes, it works in our favour. We are increasingly aligned with Google and our represented results. We are growing and getting good results, following these tips and best practices that Google is giving us.

Victor: Yes, following the way you’ve been developing the project, I think there is a lot more technique than luck involved, really. You can take advantage of a lot of what you’re developing there, as a reference for other markets and e-commerces in Brazil. Now in a little more detail, what has been changing in the SEO sector over the years? Is something specific drawing your attention?

Richard: Yes, for me there are two things. One is how technical SEO is now. When I started working in SEO, I worked a lot with keywords and on-page stuff. Now for somebody to do SEO well, they need to understand a lot of the technical side of things, like the loading of the sites, the security part of the site, and generally have a more technical profile.

Another thing I’ve noticed in recent years, and which we need to come to terms with now, is the world of paid media. Wen I started working with SEO, the vision was SEO and only SEO.

Now I think we have to reckon with Google. Here in Brazil, about 97% of online searches are made via Google, so it’s essential that we understand it. And to understand Google as a company that sells a lot of advertising. It can be through Google Ads or Google Shopping. So for me, the important thing now is not just to understand SEO, but also how SEO will interact with the world of paid media.

On that note, a trend that we have nicked up on is that ads are often occupying more and more space on SERPs. So more and more organic results, specifically on mobile,, are appearing further down the page. That’s a change I’m noticing a lot. Now that you have more and more ads, brands’ organic results are going down.

Victor: That’s cool, and that’s a great point to think about – these two channels, these two strategies, should be combined and aligned in the marketing strategy.

Richard: Yes, absolutely. I always try and take on jobs to be very close to paid media, for two reasons: because we’re usually looking for the same customers, and usually the insights we have  when analyzing  competitors may have the same value as those from paid media.

And from my viewpoint, I find it very difficult to contact Google – Google doesn’t want to talk to me since I’m a SEO manager, but I have a colleague here at B2W who has an account with Google Ads, and they have direct access to Google.

Google is always launching new products – last year they launched the organic carousel – and always has news in the pipeline. And the person who’s going to review all of it before we do is the red manager at Google. So I guess we’ll always have to have this exchange between the world of SEO and the world of Ads. I have this concept of Google traffic. “How is our Google traffic? Will we have Google traffic and SEO and Ads? Then we will have direct traffic and we have social traffic, email traffic, etc.” But I think this concept of Google traffic is a good concept. For me it’s nice to have an SEO team and a paid media team.

Victor: I agree with you 100%, it is one of the great battles that many companies have. But you have to understand that the search is just one  channel, and the customer is just one customer, regardless of where he clicks. And as someone who has lived in Brazil for two years, working with SEO, here’s an interesting question: how is it for you to identify, hire and train SEO professionals here? How difficult is it to find people to work in SEO in Brazil?

Richard: Firstly, I think the quality of professionals here in Brazil is very good, and people are very well prepared. But unfortunately all over the world it is difficult to find SEO candidates. Two years ago SEO was the most searched profession sought out by companies on LinkedIn, and now it’s Data Sites.

Here at B2W it’s a challenge to find people with experience, but I am less and less interested in people with experience. I am more interested in people who have a cool profile and who share our values because I think that, with my team, we can teach a person to do SEO in three or four months, I really believe that.

So now, this year we’re all working remotely because of the pandemic. I think now it’s easier to open up and attract people from all over Brazil, since we already have a bigger market. We have many major companies in São Paulo, and we can have a major market.

I think the most important quality which I’m always looking for in professionals is curiosity, because as everyone knows, in SEO there are no right answers. We always have to go looking, you’re going to read an article that says something, and another one that says the opposite. But overall it’s a challenge. Here in Rio de Janeiro too, it’s hard to find the perfect candidate.

I’ve been very lucky with the people I’ve been hiring here in Rio, and now with the pandemic we have a market all over Brazil, of over 200 million people. Usually when I’m conducting interviews, I’m looking for three things: whether the candidate has optimism, whether they have resilience, and motivation. For me, it’s those three characteristics which I’m trying to find in a person. In my team we have many professionals who are optimistic, who want to learn, to work, and together we are trying to be successful.

Victor: Very cool, especially this issue of resilience, for an SEO professional it’s really important. It takes time to get results.

Richard: And it’s tough, because more and more you have to explain to the team or the people who work at the agency, you have to talk to your clients and explain to people that the things you’re doing are going to work out. So I think it is very important, because SEO is not an easy job.

Resilience is important in all walks of life. I’m not talking about the person who will write the best description, the person who will do the best keyword research… for me, these are things that everyone can do, that we can teach. Obviously there are people who will have a slightly better method, etc.

Victor: And what makes an exceptional SEO professional? How do they prepare?

Richard: It’s hard, and it takes a lot of dedication. I think to become an expert, it takes a long time, a lot of hours – 10,000 hours, I believe. I tell members of my team, who have been with us for two years, that they’re in a learning process.

I think it can take four months to learn basic SEO. And about two years to understand the company you’re in, get to know the team, the context and the competition.

I think the time required to undergo this whole process is two years. Speaking of which, I’ve been working here at B2W for two years. I’m very optimistic about the future. So I think people should devote a lot of time to it, read a lot and learn a lot.

Victor: Absolutely, I agree with you. I remember when I started studying, I read for three hours a day and I went to sleep happy because I was completely in love with the subject. That dedication is necessary, and another important thing is not to stop. It’s a discipline that changes a lot over time, and I think that also to remain exceptional, and do these 10,000 hours, they need to keep themselves alive!

Richard: Absolutely. But every job has its own characteristics and with SEO, for me, it’s about learning a lot. Now, we are lucky, because SEO professionals are usually very open. So SEO depends on people who study and devote serious time to it.

Victor: Sure. And connecting with the community, that is alive and constantly experiencing things, is a real bonus. And now a question from one of our students, Jessica: What is the best strategy for us to begin SEO optimization for e-commerce and improve traffic results? Keyword insertion, product tags, links – what generates the most impact when it comes to products?

Richard: Very good. Thank you, Jessica, for your question. Like everything in SEO, the answer is: it depends. But let’s go. In my opinion, content is the basic element which Google uses to connect search intent and search results. So it pays to work with the keywords and then with links to generate visibility on search pages.

And to make space for the keywords that have been worked on, my recommendation is to always start with on-page SEO, because to do a good keyword search, you have to understand what you are selling and how your competitors are selling it as well. So for me, a keyword search isn’t an operational job, so much as a strategic job.

Secondly, in the case of e-commerce, it is important to understand what Google’s opinion is, which metrics I can analyze and, if I’m not happy with these metrics, what can I do to change that. So here we come to the part of technical SEO and off-page SEO. In each example, in each case, in each company, things will be a little different, but that would be my recommendation.

The results are such, for whatever reason, so then you have to put together your plan of action. But speaking in general terms, I would start with on-page. I think after that, I would focus on some technical aspects, like page performance, to understand also Google’s box, and finally I would focus on domain notoriety.

Maybe work with links, and with blogs to improve this. And then for me, maybe one step before the products, on the products page it would be interesting to work on a good technical sheet.

In fact, this is something that I want to explore in more detail in our class, where we will have a more extensive format. We’ll get into this, and I would like to look at some examples from B2W, examples from Americanas, Submarino and Shoptime. And also look at some examples from outside, from major e-commerce companies in the United States, what they’re doing, and also some of our competitors in Brazil. I think we can learn from them, and them from us, to make the internet a little better, to give users a better experience.

Victor: Now I’m looking forward to following this module too. Moving on to the next question, what is important for us to consider during an SEO project, and which mistakes do companies usually make?

Richard: That’s a really interesting question. Based on my experience, I’ve been working in big companies, I work as an SEO manager at B2W, I also worked at Mercado Livre, so some mistakes I see… not mistakes, but for me, a challenge we already have when we begin working on SEO projects, is being able to work as a team, and working with other teams. In my SEO team, for example, we can hardly do anything on our own, we always need the input of other teams.

And every time it’s my job to talk to these other teams, sing the praises of SEO. For me it’s a challenge during any SEO project, working with other teams. I think the SEO team of a large company will interact with more teams than any other area. From the commercial teams to the most technical. That’s my experience with large companies. It may be different for individuals who work alone or as an SEO freelancer.

Victor: I agree, the power of communication is what makes SEO generate results. I also see this a lot in projects. Are there any SEO trends for the coming years which you want to highlight? What do you think will be the next big move?

Richard: One thing I find very interesting – and this is just Richard Fenning’s hypothesis – but in my opinion Google made relatively few changes to its algorithm in 2020.

I think this is because of Covid. If you sign in to a Google Ads account now, Google is talking about how it can help small businesses. It genuinely is trying to help because it knows that, all over the world, a lot of companies are going through a tough time. I think Google has done relatively little to tinker with its algorithms in 2020, and I think by 2021 we will see a lot of algorithm optimizations.

Let’s focus on the user experience, and getting better on the page. And when I say that, I’m talking about the loading speed of your page. So I think one of the trends we’re going to see is that a lot of companies which are doing well SEO-wise these days are going to see slightly worse results going forwards.

I think this is going to be a very interesting trend. Another one, and here I’m specifically referring to e-commerce, is how content can help users. I’m going to give you an in-house example here, and it’s also something we’re going to talk about a little bit more in our class: content within Shoptime, which is one of our brands at B2W.

On the Shoptime blog we launched content which we called Diário da Casa (“Home Diary”). There is a growing trend that we have noticed among users to search for longer before making a purchase. This is a worldwide trend, and I mention it as a content trend for e-commerce. So they will only make the purchase after they become aware of the product. That’s nothing new. But I think, for me, this is a trend that will gain more importance and you will see more companies entering this area.

Victor: I find these trends really interesting, and we will wait to see what happens. I also agree that these are things that will shake our market up a lot. Richard, before we wrap up, I was wondering if you have a message which you’d like to leave for our search experience students.

Richard: Just to enjoy it! We’re giving this course because we believe we really have something to share with you. So ask away, anything you like, there are no stupid questions. I’m doing this because I have a passion for SEO.

The SEO community did a lot for me and now I wanted to do something for the community. So my message is to make the most of it, ask questions and also network, because you are the future leaders not only in SEO, but also in digital marketing.

Victor: Excellent. Richard, I would like to thank you for your participation, it was really very inspiring. You are a model professional, I have followed what you have built within B2W, you can really see what their SEO project was four years ago and what it has become since then. It is great to see people delivering this kind of quality to the Brazilian market. Thank you very much for your time, I’m counting the days to access the content for the class, and hope to learn a lot from you too.